tisdag 2 december 2008

Should Catholic women be ordained?

I asked that question in a quick poll recently. 87 persons answered before it closed. And the result was as follows.

***

Yes, absolutely - to all ministries! 51 (58%)

Yes, but only as deacons. 10 (11%)

No way! 22 (25%)

I have no idea... 4 (4%)

***

69% are thus positive to ordination of women (to all ministries or as deacons). While only 22% are strongly against. And 4% are uncertain.

So this little survey shows similar numbers as other surveys. The result is usually 60-80% in favor of ordination of women (as priests).

26 kommentarer:

Z 2 december 2008 17:08  

Although i agree, i must confess that the survey outcome could be somewhat biased:
I think a majority of your readers agree with you on the question of ordaining women.

It's a bit like my surveys. My readers are Christians to a greater extent than the average of the Swedish population. That is one of the reasons why i got around 60 % Yes-es to the question concerning answers to prayers.
(around 180 answers, in total)

minutz3 2 december 2008 19:32  

"Truth is not established by majority vote"

Eller ska vi rösta och avskaffa Helvetet också kanske? ;-)

Charlotte Therese 2 december 2008 19:34  

Well, one might think so.

But it's not as easy as that - many of my readers agree with me, but many of them have another view on this issue - they often come here to debate about it.

Remember also that this poll was out there after I wrote the letter to the Pope - that drew many here who are against women ordinations - and also a debate I had with them in another blog.

I saw the numbers quickly rising on the no-side at the end, as not so many of those who are positive to it seems to have found the poll at that time.

So I think it's quite representative after all - even if not exact, as it was quite a short survey - forgot how many weeks it was possible to vote.

This is the result that use to come out of such surveys also among Catholics in general - all over the world.

But it would be interesting to do a long international survey during a year or so, that would be even more accurate. Although I think the result would be almost the same anyway.

Charlotte Therese 2 december 2008 19:48  

Z,

The answer above was for you of course, I forgot to write it.

Minutz3,

Church teachings should be established on what people - i.e. the sensus fildelium - discerns is true.

The magisterium can't run over us all that easily.

But there aren't many things that fall into this cathegory of course - but in the few cases when it happens (where the sensus fidelii goes in the other direction than the hierarchy's interpretation), like regarding this issue, it's important to listen to the people.

If there's some issue that apparently is wrongly interpreted in history - then it's necessary to change it.

Slavery was one such thing. The view on death penalty has also been adjusted quite recently. I think the immoral of wars - for example "against terrorism" could be next thing.

One has to do what is morally right - and something that is against how Jesus taught and acted, and excludes half of the population from testing and following a call that many of them feel, simply can't be right.

That's very basic common sense.

minutz3 2 december 2008 19:50  

Det är egentligen ganska ointressant vad majoriteten anser i en trosfråga som sagt.

Sanningen avgörs inte av omröstningar, utan den är och förblir densamma.

Sedan kan vi personligen tycka att det är "orättvist" eller så - personligen har jag själv svårt att rätta mig in efter en del saker Kyrkan säger, men det är inget jag går ut eller argumenterar för offentligt för att Kyrkan skall ändra sig i.
Istället försöker jag förstå och ber om att Herren har förbarmande över mig stackars människa som inte alltid kan förstå Hans vägar.

"Ty Herrens vägar äro outgrundliga."

Varför?

Helt enkelt för att jag tror att Kyrkan har rätt, att Gud skyddar den och ger den ofelbarhet till Tidens Ände.
Precis som det står i Bibeln.

Därför måste vi ta vår kors och bära de efter vad Katolska Kyrkan säger. Utefter detta kommer vi att bedömas.

Charlotte Therese 2 december 2008 21:23  

Ja, Herrens vägar tycks vara outgrundliga t.o.m. för Kyrkan i denna fråga... :-)

Så svårt ska väl detta ändå inte vara att fatta?

Nånstans får det vara någon måtta på det stora och onödiga lidande Kyrkan orsakar många genom att stympa sig själv på detta sätt.

Det är därför jag talar.

För övrigt så är jag glad om den här tråden får vara på engelska så mycket som möjligt, så de som inte kan svenska kan hänga med.

Det finns många andra inlägg i bloggen i ämnet på svenska. Så jag tänkte för en gångs skull bryta trenden.

Charlotte Therese 2 december 2008 21:24  

P.S. Detta är ingen trosfråga, utan en ordningsfråga, vilket jag har redogjort för nyligen, så jag drar det inte här igen.

minutz3 2 december 2008 22:59  

Charlotte Therese: well, English it is then.

I don't see what you mean by saying that something like this would be changed. It's not a question of order within the Church, as is the case with married priests. Female priests have never existed in the Christian Church, and God has rejected it, as has been shown by several people, since it doesn't had anything at all to do with discrimination back when Jesus taught the disciples and everything, since there were female priests in other beliefs at that time.

..and as other have pointed out, if Jesus Christ didn't even invite His Blessed Mother - the most Blessed woman of all times and worlds - to join in at the Last Supper and to receive the mission to make bread into His body and wine into His blood - which woman would then be worthy of this?

That's simply not God's plan for women, and we can think what we want about that, but we can't change God's Word.

I just want to point out, also, that I had great difficulties in accepting Church teachings on this matter, but even if we don't fully understand something that the Church has had its say about, I believe that we mustn't explicitly argue against Church teachings.
Instead we should pray about it.

There are a lot of things that I find harder to believe also, things that I might have to just think that it's a mystery to me, and accept that for the moment.

Being a Christian isn't easy.
Noone has ever claimed so, I believe.

There are a lot of things that the world believes that we are saying "no" to, but then they miss our big "yes", that "yes" that is so much greater than this whole world has to offer us. That "yes" that means an everlasting "yes" to love impersonated.

Z 3 december 2008 08:32  

I just want to give you guys a big compliment on your English skills. It seems somehow as if this debate is much milder when you don't use Swedish.

Charlotte Therese 3 december 2008 14:07  

Z,

Was thinking about this tonight....

Can you help me create a poll about this question that would get even more statistically sure results?


Minutz3,

Will be back later to answer to your posting.

Charlotte Therese 3 december 2008 14:27  

P.S.

I don't think it's so much the English that does the trick. It's possible to be kind or nasty in any language.

It's more about having met IRL (at a party recently), discovering that we're both nice persons - right, "Minutz"? ;-)

So I vote for more IRL-blog meetings, and especially among people who disagree on stuff in the blogosphere...

Charlotte Therese 3 december 2008 14:39  

However, let's agree to disagree on the following:

>It's not a question of order within the Church, as is the case with married priests.

Yes - that's exactly what it is - please have a look at another posting that I wrote about this (in Swedish), you'll find it in the archives for last month.

>Female priests have never existed in the Christian Church,

Oh yes, they have - and there are many books by theologians written about it...

>and God has rejected it,

On the contrary! I feel at depth that God is crying with me and many others because of the present situation...

>if Jesus Christ didn't even invite His Blessed Mother - the most Blessed woman of all times and worlds - to join in at the Last Supper

Well, without any doubts, she was there, as both women and children had to be present to celebrate that traditional Jewish meal. (See a posting from around Easter time in my previous blog for a long discussion about that, which I'm not going to repreat here as that would be a side track).

>which woman would then be worthy of this?

Actually, no one is worthy of that. Good luck for us that it's God alone who acts through the sacraments! We human beings are merely unworthy tools. Men and women alike.

>That's simply not God's plan for women,

God seems to say differently.

>we can't change God's Word.

Of course not - and God has said nothing against this.

>I just want to point out, also, that I had great difficulties in accepting Church teachings on this matter,

That's good to hear...

>but even if we don't fully understand something that the Church has had its say about, I believe that we mustn't explicitly argue against Church teachings.
Instead we should pray about it.

I've prayed about it during 22 years now, with an open mind, really searching for the truth - and come to such a clear conclusion and conviction that I can't do otherwise than speaking/writing about it.

Change is needed here.

>There are a lot of things that I find harder to believe also, things that I might have to just think that it's a mystery to me, and accept that for the moment.

I agree on that - regarding the mysteries of faith - they'll always remain mysteries that we can't grasp fully. But that's a whole different story.

>Being a Christian isn't easy.
Noone has ever claimed so, I believe.

No - but the Church shouldn't be the one to make it even more difficult!! :-)

>There are a lot of things that the world believes that we are saying "no" to, but then they miss our big "yes", that "yes" that is so much greater than this whole world has to offer us. That "yes" that means an everlasting "yes" to love impersonated.

Totally agree on your final words here.

minutz3 3 december 2008 17:59  

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

Jonas 3 december 2008 20:33  

There may be historical support for female deacons within the catholic church, but not priests.

Charlotte Therese 4 december 2008 00:20  

Minutz3: so let's stick to the truth...

Jonas: there are books written about when women were priests. That was at the time when there still were no more than one Church...

Hmmm.. Interesting thought: maybe we split because there were no women priests left that could keep us together?

And maybe we'll unite once all Churches have reintroduced this again?

If so - we have to thank the evangelical Lutherans for taking the first step... And the free Churches for following up with woman pastors. And independent Churches for finally ordaining women too.

Let's see who will be the first among the giants: the Orthodox or the Catholics?

Or are they (we) competing about which one can be most stubborn longest...? ;-)

Charlotte Therese 4 december 2008 00:21  

P.S.

I think statistics can be more or less relevant. Thus more or less true.

One shouldn't take everything novel writers say literally...!

minutz3 4 december 2008 07:43  

I agree with Charlotte Therese that it's probably the IRL (In Real Life) meeting we had.

Charlotte Therese: about vocations, I actually read a thread on Xt3.com from a young that was convicted that he was called to become a married Priest. This is, of course, not the same as female Priests, but the response from the Priest was simply that God doesn't call us to something that's not in line with Church teachings, since He is in control of the Church, and He doesn't change his opinion really.

Father John Flynn: "Dear Andrew: God would not call you to two incompatible vocations. As well, just because we dream something does not necessarily mean that it comes from God.

Being married and being a priest are two separate vocations, so if you feel a call to both, then one of those calls is not genuine, as God would not call us to something contrary to what the Church teaches. When people have visions or claim to have some revelation from God one of the tests is to see if it is compatible to the doctrine of the Church, and if it is not then it is clearly not genuine.

I am glad to hear you feel this deep call to serve God in his Church and I appreciate your sincerity and desire to respond to God's call. This is a good starting point. What is needed now is more prayer and also guidance from a priest who can help you discern what it is that God is calling you to. "

..."Dear Andrew: I do not doubt your sincerity, or the force of what you feel in your heart. I would, however, like to point out that it is not just a question of what we may feel in our hearts. We have to discern if what we feel comes from God or not.

Moreover, if we are a part of the Church and want to be faithful to the Church we must measure what we feel or are inclined to against what the teaching of the Church is on the subject. Are we really to say that because we feel called to something in our hearts that a worldwide Church of hundreds of millions, with a teaching that has developed over centuries, should suddenly change and do what we say?

If we were to endorse such a position then the Church would fragment into millions of splinters, with groups all over the place, each saying they were doing what God was calling them to do.

Reflect on last Sunday's Gospel - Matthew 16:13-20 - Jesus handed to Peter the authority to loose and bind, to determine Church teaching. The Catholic Church is founded on the rock of Peter, not on our own inclinations, preferences or desires. God revealed his teaching and also handed over the Peter and his successors the authority to guide the Church.

So maybe what you feel called to is not coming from God, and maybe all of us - and there are many such people - who feel it difficult to accept some of what the Church teaches, need to practice a little more humility and also to have confidence in Christ and in God's plan for our salvation.

I'm not saying this is easy to accept, and in can be very difficult. But if we try to reinvent the Church according to our own desires then we are surely not following God, but rather ourselves."...

Charlotte Therese 4 december 2008 14:36  

Well, Minutz,

Can you give me the link to this forum thread, please?

I feel sorry for the person who asked, that he got such answers.

That must make him feel even more sad - and uncertain - although he probably still feels the call to both.

I talked with another young man feeling the same call just last week...

I think this is one of the ways God actually leads the Church to change. By inspiring many with deep wishes in the same direction.

And regarding this question - it wasn't long ago that the Church changed it in this direction. So it's quite cruel to answer in such a way. Many have been Catholic married priests in history. That's what was most common during a long time.

And the reasons against are merely economical - that the Church can't support priest families. But there are solutions to that as well...

minutz3 4 december 2008 19:55  

Charlotte Therese: the URL is
http://www.xt3.com/discussion/thread.php?id=3731

As I did point out when writing, the world does view it as if we Christians say "no" to a lot of things. But to us, that doesn't matter. Even suffering because we deny ourselves something that we really would like might be a way of praising God almighty.

This is especially true when the Church, which God has lead and will lead till the End of Time, has made clear statements about a matter.

Both John Paul II and our current Pope, Benedict XVI, has made it clear that women cannot take part in the Prieshood.

This should not be taken as women would be lesser worth in the eyes of God, of course.
But God has a plan for us.
Female Priests is not part of that plan. We know that since the Church has had its say about it, and the Church is infallible.

Charlotte Therese 4 december 2008 20:08  

The Church isn't supposed to destroy vocations - that would be absurd - and we're not supposed to applause suffering caused by the Church!

If you think you're right - then make sure that noone will be allowed to be a priest or do anything else they feel called to - from now on, if suffering is higher valued than following God....

I think you see that this would be very wrong.

And it's very wrong that the Church is going against God here...

If the Church was completely infallible at every occasion - then it wouldn't make big nmistakes like this.

This shows that the infallibility can only be applied under certain conditions. And this is not one of them.

minutz3 4 december 2008 20:50  

Charlotte Therese: I just have to mention something about vocations that our Priest mentioned during my conversion talks.

He told me that one cannot say that one has a vocation. It has to be aknowledged by the Church. If it isn't, it isn't a vocation.

He used himself as an example and said that he could claim that he was a doctor (or what it was now..) how much he liked to, but that wouldn't change the fact that he is no doctor.

Some things are also, of course, needed to become something, and there are a lot of things that one might say we can't do anything about that makes us unable to be a part of the Priesthood.

Charlotte Therese 4 december 2008 21:25  

That wasn't exactly a good example...

To make it the same as regarding priests would be to only allow male students to study to become doctors. And to say that only men can be called to this.

It used to be like that a long time ago, only men studied at universities - but that has changed...

To say that all women are excluded from being called by God to Church ministry would be quite stupid.

That's not the way God acts - on the contrary.

I don't understand your last sentence. Can you explain?

Jonas 4 december 2008 22:23  

Charlotte, many things are written in different books but that does not mean it is the truth. Do you mean that the Catholic church agree with that there has been women priests recognised by the church, and if not, is the church lying?

Charlotte Therese 4 december 2008 22:40  

It seems like the Church somehow is shutting her eyes and closing her ears - because if the whole truth is drawn out into the light, then things must change and the Church must admit she was wrong. And guess if the Church would like to do that?

Catholic theological scholars wrote those books. Those I've read seems to be very reliable. I still have a pile here that I haven't read yet.

And I'm sorry - but I don't have time to repeat the same things over and over again about this, as that takes too much time.

Others are of course welcome to continue this debate.

And read some of these books for yourself - and see what you find out.

Jonas 5 december 2008 21:45  

Then maybe you can name this books and the authors?

Charlotte Therese 5 december 2008 22:57  

I've done that quite a few times already, both here and in other blog discussions, should have made a list somewhere so I wouldn't need to search for them each time.

But before I find the titles from some other posting (you may google and find them as well), you may have a look at this website where there are hundreds (thousands?) of articles.

That should keep you busy quite awhile... :-)

There's also a guided tour giving many questions and answers, think you'll find it there.

http://www.womenpriests.org/index.asp

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