måndag 3 november 2008

Skillnad mellan protestantiska/katolska kyrkor?

Fick ett mail med följande påstående. Tycker det var intressant uttryckt.

Håller ni med - eller inte?

"Protestant churches tend to minister to people on the intellectual and/or spiritual levels but we are also physical beings and the Catholic Church with its incarnational and sacramental theology ministers to people on that level as well as the other two."

12 kommentarer:

Papa Dan 3 november 2008 10:22  

Jag skulle gärna vilja se en utveckling av det argumentet! =)

Charlotte Therese 3 november 2008 12:50  

Tyvärr var det just så där kort och kärnfullt uttryckt i mailet.

Men jag kan ju eventuellt be författaren att utveckla saken...

Papa Dan 4 november 2008 10:01  

Ja det skulle vara intressant faktiskt! Eller hur ser du själv på det?

Charlotte Therese 4 november 2008 12:05  

Jag kan ju skriva och fråga - får se om det kommer något svar... I så fall klistrar jag in det här.

Ska jag spåna lite själv utifrån citatet så tror jag att personen som skrev det menar att sakramenten är så oerhört konkreta i katolska kyrkan. Och de är ju dessutom fler än i protestantiska kyrkor.

Vi betonar det jordiska lika mycket som det himmelska.

Läran är inkarnerad. Sitter inte bara i huvudet som teorier, spekulationer.

Själv har jag inte funderat över detta så mycket, annat än kanske just när jag blev katolik och berikades med fler sakrament...

Men jag tyckte att tanken var intressant.

Det vore som sagt också intressant att höra vad ni andra tycker om detta - vare sig ni håller med eller inte.

Charlotte Therese 5 november 2008 12:42  

Jag fick svar nu i ett mail från en som heter Howard som skrev det jag citerade.

Han har lovat att komma med ett lite utförligare svar här senare - så håll utkik!

Anonym 7 november 2008 07:50  

Hello, my name is Howard. I am currently an American evangelical Methodist with a strong interest in the Catholic Church as well as the charismatic movement.

Charlotte asked me to explain what I meant in my statement comparing my observations and experiences in Protestant churches which tend to minister to people on the intellectual and/or spiritual levels while the Catholic Church ministers to people on a physical level with its incarnational and sacramental in addition to the other two levels. This is not just an academic topic to me. It has more of a life and death aspect to it.

Being an evangelical "born again" believer, I attended Bible teaching Protestant churches after my conversion experience where I asked Jesus into my life. They taught me the Scriptures and how to study them for myself as well as how to preach and teach. I learned a lot about God the Father and Jesus Christ his son and the Holy Spirit but I didn't really grow very much in my personal relationship with the Trinity. I didn't pray very much in my private prayer life. And I couldn't seem to develop it on my own. So I began to search looking at other Christian groups to see what I could learn from them on how to draw closer to God. I became an amateur church historian studying the various Christian churches and movements seeking help for my thirst to know and experience God more. My search has ultimately led me to the charismatic movement and to the Catholic Church. With regard to the charismatic movement, I believe the Holy Spirit is still distributing all of the gifts we find in Scripture. I have prayed to receive the gift of tongues or at least praying in tongues because I have seen the benefit in the prayer lives of my charismatic brothers and sisters in Christ. But God has yet to answer that prayer. And that is one of the "catches" in the charismatic movement. God either gives you the gift or experience or he doesn't.

However, the Catholic Church believes that because of the incarnation God comes to us through and uses material things as means of grace. Things such Jesus Christ's real presence in the Eucharist, the sacramentals (holy water, the sign of the cross, etc), worshipping God in a very physical way (kneeling, genuflecting, bowing), the visual aids such as statues, paintings, candles. God actually does things through the sacraments, they are not merely meaningful symbols.

I have found the written prayers, the holy cards, the crucifixes to be such sources of blessing and spiritual experience with God.

And the beauty of it all is that these means of grace are available to the humblest of persons. You don't have to be a Biblical or theological know-it-all or wait for some spiritual blessing from on high as good as those things may be. God has become one of us and lives among us in this physical world and we can see and touch and taste him. And it is but a sampling of what awaits us in heaven.

That is what I mean.

Charlotte Therese 7 november 2008 12:01  

Howard,

Thanks for giving us a longer explanation. This is how I thought you maybe meant - but it's better that you said it yourself...

Hope that Papa Dan who originally asked finds your answer!

P.S.

Regarding tounges - I think the intellect can stand very much in the way there... Or expectations that it's supposed to be in a certain way.

Have you tried to just start speaking? The very first sounds that come to you. It can be as simple as that.

Sometimes it can be easier to start by singing in tounges...

Anonym 11 november 2008 06:08  

Thanks for the tip on tongues, Charlotte. I'll let you know if anything happens.

Looks like Papa Dan hasn't been back. But I shared it with a Catholic friend of mine and she was blessed by it.

Charlotte Therese 11 november 2008 14:01  

Well, I know it worked for some, hope it works for you as well... ;-)

Good that your friend was blessed...!

Will see if I can find Papa Dan through the link from his name - it seems like he has a blog. If I find him, I'll tell him that you answered - then maybe he has further questions...

Papa Dan 12 november 2008 09:27  

Thanks alot for the answere Howard. Now I understand your intitial post much clearer. If I do agree? ... well probly not, but I think the main problem between us christians is that we rather focus on what differentiates us rather than what unites us, wich is of course the belief in Jesus Christ and the holy trinity (and that is really all that matters).

Secondly I have to say that I think that your view rather focuses on your personal experience rather than the Protestant Faith/Church as such.

Here in Sweden we have a great Mystical movement within the church and in many a church we can get teachings in deep christian meditation and prayer. We have at many occations had brothers from Taize visiting and contributing to that focus.

This could be a thing here in Sweden though as I think we have one very special Bishop to thank for waking this movement.

I do agree with you on the potential of the physical items you talk about, and that they might be of great help. Still, it would be important to not go into the worshiping of idols.

So Who am I? I'd say that Im floating between the churches. I am a christian, and that is all that really matters. I belong to a movement called The Twelve Tribes of Israel, but I still go and take the comunion in church some times and I still read a lot of the old church fathers and about many Ortodox saints etc.

Catholicism is very much living and have a great deal of positive things in it, but for me personaly there are some matters that I have hard to accept.

...but as previous stated. The important thing is that, you, me, Charlotte and a whole lot of other people are Christians, and as christians we are in a way part of the very same church. So I hope one thay that we ALL can unite and pray the Lords Prayer together and leave all the differences behind.

Charlotte Therese 12 november 2008 12:06  

Papa Dan,

Thanks for sharing...

I never heard of the movement you belong to. Can you tell a bit about what's special with it?

I do agree that we share the most important things as Christians. But I think every Church has missed out on stuff that would need to be reintroduced (and exaggerated other stuff instead).

Unity would adjust this...

The largest problem is that we "can't" (there's really no excuse) celebrate the Eucharist together yet - but prayer is possible....

But isn't it a bit odd - that we can pray Our Father together - and still not unite fully in celebrating together. Are we really aware of what we're praying...?

Will tell Howard that you answered...

Papa Dan 12 november 2008 12:33  

Twelve Tribes of Israel is basicly a very christian branch of the Rastafari faith. Sort of a crossbreed of protestantism, judaeism, Jehovas Whitnesses and african/rastafarian influences.

The main message is to read a chapter a day. Bob Marley amongst others were one of the movements most famous members.

But I try to not stick TOO hard to an identety like that, as I told you earlier I foremost se my self as a christian, and I still visit church (not only protestant) and for instance share the comunion with other christians.

This is basicly against the views of TToI but I still feel connected in a special way to this group with its roots in Jamaica and its strong association with Ethiopia (second oldest christian nation on earth)but I cannot walk on a strict and narrow road like that. I think it is against the message of Jesus to exclude people that also believe in him.

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